Tina Gosney and Brent Bartel are back to discuss level 2 of Stephen R Covey’s Pyramid of Influence – the relationship level and what other people feel when they are around you. This episode is the 4th in a 6 part series on the Pyramid of Influence. Want to listen to the first 3 in the series, click below
Episode 65 – The Pyramid of Influence – What Other People See, part 1
Episode 66 – The Pyramid of Influence – What Other People See, part 2
Episode 69 – The Pyramid of Influence – What Other People Feel, part 1
2:10 – Accept the person and the situation
20:40 – Admit your mistakes, apologize, and ask for forgiveness
29:20 – Assume the best in others
43:50 – Go one on one
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Full Transcript
Tina Gosney
Thank you for tuning in to part two of this discussion on the pyramid of influence. What other people feel if you haven’t listened to the first two discussions that we had and where we described what the pyramid of influence is, go to Episode 65 and 66. That’s where we talk about that. This is a Stephen R Covey model and anything that’s coming from Stephen R, Covey is going to be great. Now Brent is a certified life coach. He is a Stephen R. Covey expert, he spent over 20 years facilitating workshops and teaching covering materials. And you’re going to really enjoy this discussion. In the last episode, in Episode 69, we talked about how we need to be influenced by other people first, before we ask them to be influenced by us. We talked about what an emotional bank account is and why it’s so important to be making consistent deposits into that bank account. We talked about clarifying expectations of ourselves and others. And a very important concept of seek first to understand and then to be understood. So go listen to that one first, if you haven’t, and enjoy this episode, and I’ll see you on the other side.
Brent Bartel
All right, you want to move on to the next one. Sure. Number three, so this is except the person and the situation. I think perhaps the very first step and fostering the improvement and development of another is just simply accepting them where they are. And right where they are, then that’s a really easy one to say and not necessarily easy in translation. So a feeling of worth and acceptance tends to nullify defensiveness, tenderizes people in a way that opens them to influence. I think judgment and rejection are just so antithetical or so oppositional to unconditional love and acceptance. Stephen talks about emotional cancers. And it’s very alliterative, they all start with C, but he talks about criticizing, and complaining, comparing and competing. And I think there’s a fifth one you contending. But when we find ourselves in this orbits, we are clearly in our circle of concern. And the person who may be the object of the force sees clearly feels anything but accepted. It’s important to realize, I think, too, because perhaps we struggle with this a little bit that accepting is not condoning or approving. It’s not agreeing or even endorsing. But it is simply a clear recognition of one’s moral agency just to make choices for their own life. In demonstrating a respect, I think, you know, for that agency. At times, I know I’ve been guilty of this, even unwittingly, we sort of try to make others over in our own image. We write the script for the people we love. And we are all well intentioned, I think in the writing. But we’re not the authors of their story. We get to write our own story. And I think even then, sometimes we show that we have lots of CO writers, you know, in terms of our own story. I love this the venerable Christian writer, CS Lewis, he wrote about the expected good and the given good. Or one might say, what is ideal kind of versus what is real. And I think sometimes we get so focused on the expected good of what a person should do, or what a person should be that we missed the giving good, you know, of really what they are.
We’re all like sliver moons, are we not? I remember talking to a mom outside of her house. She was having some challenges with with a teenage daughter some real challenges. And we’re having this conversation, I looked up in the sky, and there was this tiny little sliver moon. And in the course of our conversation, I kind of had this tiny moment of inspiration or perhaps just desperation, but I remember looking at that and talking to her going, you know, your daughter’s just like that sliver moon right now that that’s all you can see. But you know, there’s so much more there, that there’s so much more to her than you can see right now, because potential really is a part of us, is it not? And so, the, you know, we’re all sliver lose at some point. Yeah. And I just think that I just think that recognizing that and being able to accept people kind of right where they are. And embracing and accepting them where they are really increases your influence. And it allows you to help or assist them to become perhaps something better, something better of their choosing, and perhaps of your encouragement.
Tina Gosney
I think this really directly goes back to our conversation on expectations. And reality like, and it sounds like what you’re saying is I expected your life to go this way, or for you to be this way. But what you’re giving me is something different right now. And I’m not liking what you’re giving me. And so I’ve got a lot of disappointment, I have a lot of frustration, I have a lot of sometimes resentment towards you. Because you’re not giving me what I expect, when maybe that person never wrote that expectation for themselves. We wrote that for them. And how fair is that for us to then expect them to live up to our expectation of them, without asking them what they wanted for themselves. So there’s that aspect, which I love that you brought up. And then there’s also that if I’m living in that, in that gap of suffering between my expectation and the reality, I missing so much of the beauty of the reality that is, and I can’t ever actually move. If I’m doing that to myself, I can’t ever move forward. I’m just totally stuck in the beating myself up, beating myself up for the expectations that I thought I should be living up to. I’m doing that with someone else. And just living into the disappointment of their relationship, rather than seeing what’s beautiful, and lovely. And potentially growing about this relationship with this person.
Brent Bartel
Yeah, that that is so well said. And I completely agree. I said it before, but it’s kind of like the philosopher said, you know, we see what we see. And when we look for the deviations, you know, when when we see through the gap, the failed expectations, the script that’s not being played out, you know, those kinds of things, sometimes that’s all we can see. And I think it’s such an apropos point, that there’s really beautiful things happening in the lives of people. And where if we’re not present to that, you know, we just we distinguished at a level of deviance, you know, wherever you deviated from the standard, what have you deviated from my expectations? And it’s just really corrosive to the relationship. And again, this is about this is about influence. No, if you want to curtail influence, it’s a great way to do it. No, it’s not easy. You know, you’ve been through stuff. We’ve all been through stuff with the people that we love the most. And being able to say, I can love you, right, hear who you are and where you are. And I think that gives people such a deep sense of security. We talked about this last time. But I’m safe with this person. You know, I’m, they have my back always. And they love me for just me. And that is, you know, sadly, a lot of people don’t have that in their lives. It is so powerful to give that gift, both to the giver and the receiver.
Tina Gosney
Right. Right. I totally agree with that. And I think how much suffering we put on ourselves when we expect other people to be different and to live up to our stories and expectations of them. Not just the relationship. I mean, that certainly suffers. But that’s self and self inflicted suffering that we don’t need to have. And we’ve got enough things to deal with without choosing more and heaping it on ourselves.
Brent Bartel
Yeah, yeah, so true. Yeah. And none of us probably need more rocks in our knapsack that we can love thrive. We probably all do a little of that.
Tina Gosney
You know, there’s this well, there’s this this concept of ego that I talk about sometimes in that we you know, our ego really is, what is our favorite view of ourselves and our life. And our brain will protect that view. And it thinks that view is the only right way. And that that’s the way things are supposed to go. But so often the people in our lives challenge, especially our family members challenge, the way that we view ourselves and the way that we think our life is supposed to go. And our brain will just do whatever it can, it just manipulates and wants to control and wants to just to bring everything back into alignment with that story that we have inside of our brain. But often, that’s so not even possible. So as we look at our ego, it’s important to like maybe challenge the story about this is the way my life was supposed to go. And this is how the people in my life are supposed to behave, and the things that are they’re supposed to do so that my story can play out the way it’s supposed to. So I think that’s really important to challenge that. But it’s one of the hardest things to do.
Brent Bartel
It is hard. It absolutely is. I was just posting, in fact, the other day on a coaching board or a platform that I’m involved with. But I talked about the reticular activating system. And it’s it’s it’s really it’s part of the way we’re hardwired and you know, different conversation different time. But, but it’s really interesting, this sort of confirmation bias, like you said, I mean, our brain wants to be right. And it works really hard to confirm all of those deep edit assumptions that we have, like you said, it’s really interesting that, that we have so much data that we can’t, we’re saturated in stimuli and input all the time, and we can’t possibly take it in. So our brain has to decide how we discriminate what we filter out. And we filter out things that are contrary, right, right to our deeply held beliefs and our assumptions or even our expectations. And never recognizing like you said it’s happening, right, we think we see it all as it is. And we just don’t, we’re not even close. That sounds
Tina Gosney
like that documentary on social media platforms that came out one or two years ago. Do you remember that one?
Brent Bartel
Oh, gosh, yes. It
Tina Gosney
was called to social dilemma. I think that’s what the name of it was.
Brent Bartel
Yeah, exactly what it was called.
Tina Gosney
Yeah. Yeah.
Brent Bartel
I was such a nerd. I took copious notes on it made my children watch it. I thought it was just really powerful. Yeah. Because you’re right. It’s a some kind of algorithms, you know, just get more of what I believe. And so then I believe it more deeply. Yeah, I become less and less, sort of diversified in my perspectives. And
Tina Gosney
yeah, and you’re you’re seeing less and less of anything that challenges your point of view. Right. So you’re even further believing your own truth and not seeing an alternate truth? Yes, no. Alternative opinion?
Brent Bartel
Yes. And I live in this echo chamber, don’t I? Yeah. And I’m so satisfied to hear myself talk or other people talk my same talk. You don’t need anything else. And we become so arrogant in the rightness of our position. Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting, that documentary that one of the future has had some fairly dire prognostications about where that will lead society, you know, on a societal level, you know, if we continue to sort of down that pathway, right.
Tina Gosney
Yeah. Yeah. Polarization, in our society, and in our family. Yeah. Because we’re not challenging our brains view of our own truth and reality, and maybe trying to look inside someone else through someone else’s glasses, like you said before.
Brent Bartel
Right. Right. And just getting back to that if we just sought to understand, you know, if I really, look Can I can I wholly disagree with somebody, but see earnestly to understand them? For a lot of people that didn’t know and do it, right. What a sign of maturity and character strengths, to be able to say, I wholly disagree with your position. But you know what, I just want to really listen to understand why you believe so passionately, in its core about it. Right? That is just that’s a really powerful thing and not an easy thing. Like I said, sometimes it threatens our oldest security. What if my mind has changed in that process potentially?
Tina Gosney
Or when it’s when you’re maybe a parent, it’s no I have to convince this child that they’re wrong. Yes, this is they’re just misled. And it’s my job to convince them of that. Yes, yes. Yeah, that can be are threatening, it feels like it feels like it’s your responsibility. But it doesn’t promote them wanting to open up to you again. And to talk to you again about anything.
Brent Bartel
And the amazing thing about that is the very end that we are trying to bring about the effect that we’re trying to have is far less likely because of the method we’re employing to bring the effect about right. Did I say that? Okay, yeah.
Tina Gosney
Yeah. So let me, let me see if I understand what you’re saying right there. The thing that we’re doing that we think will bring more influence is actually creating less influence. And that’s our goal is to have more influence. But we’re creating less by what how we’re going about it.
Brent Bartel
All right, far better, far better.
Tina Gosney
Did I interpret that correct? Yes.
Brent Bartel
No? Okay. That’s way better than I presented it. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. Yeah. And not knowing, and sometimes we’re so locked in these patterns. It’s not sure how us to do it. And so slowing down and, you know, expanding a little bit, now allows us to kind of conceive of other ways of being in doing and interacting, you know, that would clearly just bring about different results.
Tina Gosney
Yeah, you know, what I find really fascinating and coaching, is that often, the thing that we think that we should be doing, is not the thing that we should be doing. The thing that seems counterintuitive to getting the result that we want, is often the very place that we need to go and explore. Yeah, that’s why it’s so hard to do on your own. Because your brain is going to tell you no, that other way is completely wrong. To accept a person where they are completely wrong. Acceptance actually gets you more of what you want.
Brent Bartel
Oh, it so does, you know, I just, I gotta share this, such as thought of this, and I’m sorry, I know, you know, why this podcast, but. But it just, it’s simulated a thought, you know, I was I was 19 and a half no member of the LDS faith tradition, have a mission is sort of an expected thing I didn’t want to go. I thought it was an intrusion. It just, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t fake it, my mom cried. I just couldn’t do it. And so you know, I was creeping up next to 20. And making plans for the rest of my life, and certainly didn’t involve a mission. But I remember I did have some internal conflict and some turmoil, clearly. I mean, around the expectations, and why didn’t I feel it all my buddies are going in what’s wrong with me and all this kind of stuff. Anyway, I went to talk to a bishop, my bishop, and, and I knew what you can tell me, he was going to tell me how amazing would be for me to go on a mission, I was going to grow up, and it’s my obligation, and I should be able to serve this way and, and be a little selfish, and all these things. I wrote his script before I even got in the office. And, you know, I sat with him. He didn’t see any of that stuff. Nobody said, essentially, it was, you know, Brent, you’re a great young man, God loves you. And he’s not gonna love you one whit less if you go or you don’t go. And then he said, and he was really sincere. And I felt that. And he said, I want you to know that I love you, as your bishop. And whether you go or whether you don’t, it’s not going to change my opinion about you. And Elise, I will love you every bit as much. And you will have missions to perform here if you don’t go on a full time mission. And if you do go on a full time mission, there’ll be glorious adventures to be had. But you’re going to be just fine. Either way. It’s like, okay, that is not what I expected. And it was amazing, though. It gave me a room to breathe. And it was, it was. Yeah, there was there was so it was so therapeutic to me to hear that from him. And it changed me that and some, you know, along the course of some other events, I served a mission and it was it was glorious. Can imagine having not had that opportunity. But he just accepted me right where I was. And he didn’t necessarily try to change that. At least not in that context. Not in that setting. He just wanted me to be safe and okay. Yeah, where I was, which
Tina Gosney
for some people would, they would look at that situation and think that’s exactly the opposite of what he should have done. Right? Like he should have told you all the reasons why you should be going and why it would be better for you have to go. But he did the opposite of what most people would have done. And that’s what made the difference for you. Exactly, or at least he contributed to it.
Brent Bartel
contributed mightily and it’s two years on it, but sometimes it is the exact opposite. It’s the counterintuitive thing. Yeah. Listen to Moses for me. Yeah,
Tina Gosney
I am accepting is such a huge part of what we both work in with coaching. Accepting what is accepting people, situations, circumstances as they are, allows us to then move through them, instead of getting stuck repeating unwanted and negative patterns in our lives.
Brent Bartel
Yes, that’s good stuff. Let’s go to work. Yep,
Tina Gosney
it is. Let’s go on to the next one. Okay, number four.
Brent Bartel
So I’m sorry, I took this one hand, but admit your mistakes, apologize and ask for forgiveness. I think apologizing sincerely with the intent to make amends can be such a significant deposit into the sort of the emotional bank account. And conversely, failing to do so can often represent really painful withdrawals. There’s just something really beautiful about the soul who can says, you know, authentically, look, I’m really sorry, please forgive me. Or I think I kind of blew that one, I’m really going to try harder, or, you know, however it sounds, but to be on the receiving end of that can really be powerful. Being on the receiving end of that, you know, can can be powerful, too. I think it’s so often it’s the very catalyst to kind of healing and reconciliation and influence. And it takes a great deal of character, strength. And it takes a great deal of humility, to apologize and ask for forgiveness, one needs to have kind of this deep sense of security and ground and groundedness, I think just to be vulnerable enough to be able to admit, you know, I was wrong, or I’m sorry, that was a misstep or whatever. I think, Tina, that sometimes people with little internal security or her derive strength from being right, or in their mind, making few mistakes are really challenged to offer an apology when needed. And when they do it, it may be contrived or even insincere, they may feel justified in their behavior, and kind of rationalize why they even need to apologize because it threatens their sense of identity. Yeah, and I shouldn’t just be sitting there because, you know, I’ve certainly I’ve been in that place, too, that offering an apology, you know, seems really threatening. But it is so powerful, I don’t really have a ton to say about that, other than, then it’s essential to relational life and to doing it well. And it requires a level of kind of perceptual humility, that we can look at things and recognize that the world is different out there than we see it. And we need to be able to own that.
Tina Gosney
And,
Brent Bartel
you know, I admit, when we fall short,
Tina Gosney
yeah. In fact, I think apologizing and forgiving are so important that I’ve actually done a podcast just on apologizing, and one on forgiving that I will I will just reference those in the show notes. But please, I I wholeheartedly agree with what you’re saying. I think it is very key and pivotal in that emotional bank account. And for to have someone feel safe with you, and have that trust in you, as well as what you were talking about. I was sitting in, in Sunday school, one of our church meetings, I think it was maybe two or three months ago, but the lesson turned for for just a few minutes at the end on forgiving. And can you offer forgiveness no matter what I think was the one of the questions that was asked. And there was a woman who was talking about a friend of hers who early on in, in her marriage, her husband had stepped out on her several times. And she’s had a really, really difficult marriage and they ended up getting divorced. And then this husband’s ex husband went and really changed his ways. Completely changed his way of being in the world, remarried, started another family and was then you know, holding himself up as I’m, you know, a person that was not the same person that she was married to, but had this this ex husband of hers had never come back and owned and said I’m sorry for the things that I put you through during our marriage. And there was I have to tell you, there was an overwhelming consensus in the room of well, she can’t forget until he comes back and says something, or how can she forgive until he does that, and you know, those kinds of comments, those that set sentiment was just running through the room, sometimes hesitate to raise my hand because I don’t, I often will offer a differing point of view that is running through the roof. And sometimes I just don’t feel like I want to, I don’t feel maybe strong enough to do that, or I just don’t feel like that’s where I want to go. This particular day, I was feeling pretty good. So I’m like, Okay, I’m gonna raise my hand. And I think it was shortly after I had done the podcast on forgiving. But I said, you know, actually, when we forgive somebody else, it’s a gift that we give to ourselves. Because that other person, that ex husband doesn’t get to feel, all the anger, all the disappointment, all the hurt, that this woman is, has been carrying around with her. She’s the one that asked to feel that. And her feeling it more and not forgiving him does not punish him in the least. She’s the one that’s finishing herself. And even though like, of course, it would be easier for her to forgive. It’d be so much easier for her to get to that place where she could forgive if he came and said, You I did you wrong, I was so terrible to you. I did all these things that I hurt you so much. And I’m sorry. That rarely happens that someone will come to us and say those things. Yeah. But do then we just perpetuate that hurt by carrying it around with us. Like you said, throwing more rocks in your backpack, like, I’m going to carry around this big giant boulder. And I’m not going to lay it down until you tell me that you’re sorry that I’m carrying this around.
Brent Bartel
Right? Yeah,
Tina Gosney
so we do this we forgive for ourselves. It’s, it’s hard, hard, hard, especially when we go through really difficult things that affect our life in such a profound way. Yeah, it is a gift to ourself. And when we carry around that burden, we’re not actually allowing Christ to come into our lives, to connect with us on that level, where he said, I’m going to take your burdens just given to me because I can handle it in my mind are light, you don’t need to carry this. So it actually doesn’t allow us to connect with Christ, and to grow in that relationship, when we hold on to those hurts, and want to just hold on to them and carry them around.
Brent Bartel
That is so so good. Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that. One of my favorite little quotes is, um, resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. Right. And I think that’s exactly what you’re saying. I’m sorry. You know, I read the New Testament passages and lords admonition about, you know, if you don’t forgive the greater sins on you, and I’d say, well, that doesn’t seem very fair does it? Because I’ve kind of thought about that, is that well, obviously, you know, he wants us to be happy, and unburdened by so much in life and recognizes a Lakota citizen, if I’m gonna haul this around. It is strangers, me from that most important relationship, and even from myself. And life is just heavy, and weighty, and so much more difficult than it has to be. And so it’s like, I don’t want that for you, you know, right. Right. Get rid of this stuff, you know, lose the load?
Tina Gosney
Yeah, yeah. Well, which is freely and forgive freely, I think it’s so important in order to keep those deposits in that emotional bank account. Yeah, to not be withdrawing more than you really want to because you can’t do either of those freely.
Brent Bartel
Right. And if you’re on the other end of that, accept the apology. And, you know, and recognize the courage that it takes for somebody to actually do that. I think that’s an that’s an important part of the equation too.
Tina Gosney
Right? Right. Yeah. Let’s move on.
Brent Bartel
Yeah, number five, was assume the best in others. I think by adopting a paradigm that people want to do well, and are making a meaningful effort as they see it, we can powerfully influence their lives. I think each person is so full of potential. We talked about this and that sliver Moon idea, and some of the potentials is evident and a lot of it’s normal. That people tend to respond to how we treat them and what we believe about them. So I think that’s really important. So people respond. And based on how we treat them in what we believe about them. And so you ask, Well, how do they know what we believe about them? Well, we reflect it. And we reflect it in unmistakable ways. This concept has sort of been around for a long time, it’s called the Social mirror theory. It was developed a long time ago. But I think essentially this application, it just suggests that we influence others by what we reflect back to them. And what we reflect about them really, in terms of sort of perceptions, and opinions and beliefs that we have, is almost more about us than it is about them. You know, Stephen would say it’s more projection than reflection. But our self perception can be powerfully shaped by the perceptions of other people. So what are the images reflected back to us by the people who have influenced in our lives? What do we see in their social mirror? And what images do we reflect? I think is a concept, it’s really helpful. If I just recognized, using just as the metaphor like, I am reflecting back to my children, my wife, the key people in my life, what I think about them, right, but I think they’re capable of who they are all of the stuff. And they see that reflected in so often, I don’t even realize it. Sometimes it sounds like this. You can never be on time, they’re always so negative. You’re great with kids, your life is such a mess, you have the potential to be really successful. This is so simple. Why can’t you understand that you’re just not cut out for this kind of thing, honey, you shouldn’t try that, you know, you’re just going to be disappointed, you know, and on and on and on. And perhaps we don’t recognize that, that that feels that we’re doing good at times, but it’s creating a reflection, that oftentimes is just very inaccurate.
Tina Gosney
And when you’re doing that, with, let’s just look at young children who don’t eat, they’re looking for you for their sense of who they are. And as a parent, you’re telling them, oh, you’re just not very good at this, or Mary is the talented one. And Suzy is the pretty one. Right? We just we tend to treat them the way that we see them. And then that becomes the labels that they believe about themselves. And how empowering or damaging that can be to them as they take those labels, and grow up with those and think that defines who they are.
Brent Bartel
Yeah, that is so good. It is perfectly then because I actually yeah, I had very experienced, I mean, we probably all have with our own children. But then my second set of little quasi twins, they were quite young. And I had one of those kind of moments that I came to myself. And it’s like, wow. And for whatever reason, I became a little more conscience or conscious of what I was reflecting back to them. You know, our son was fanciful, and it was funny, we kept his book and hate isms. His name’s Kay. And he’s just funny, quirky little thing this little guy would say, and he was extravagantly imaginative, and you meet him anyways, he just kind of marched to his own property. And then our daughter exactly the same as your and she’s, she’s focused, and she’s orderly, and she’s driven. And she’s just ridiculously advanced, you know, and kind of like every area. And this was just totally imperceptible to me, like you said, until it wasn’t until I came to realize that I was reflecting back images. I thought what they were capable of what they would be good at, what they wouldn’t be good at their talents or inclinations, or limitations. It seems that that’s based on reality, right? That’s reason that’s observation. But if the humility to be able to recognize hey, look, I don’t see the world as it is, I see these kids is really they are I see them as I am. Sure, there may be some kernels of truth there. But we exaggerated so much, and sometimes the reflections become so distorted. And the images were, you know, were incomplete, at best. And at worst, they were just wholly inaccurate. But you’re absolutely right, Tina, these little kids seem to that mere. And so and then the corollary to this, is they sort of begin to believe it. Yeah. And then then that kind of gets into, you know, that self fulfilling prophecy. You know, oh, I’m not the smart one. I’m the funny one. Yeah, my dad thinks I’m the funny when he writes his stuff in his book, because I’m finding my sister smart, but I’m finding right and then they start to believe it and then what happens what then they start to live into it. And they start to become that and they start to conform and kind of adapt themselves to these reflected me wishes. And then I think it even goes into sort of the start to inform my five very self image my identity, which is the tap root of, of what I become and who I am. So, yeah, there’s a powerful influence there.
Tina Gosney
You know, when I read this one assume the best in others, I kind of went to a different place before I read the description of it. Yeah, I went to I went to a place of because I’ve had several I would say, just circumstances where I’ve been coaching people, lately, where on an unrelated I coach a lot of on relationships between spouses or family members, and where the person that I’m coaching is viewing the other person as almost an adversary. And they’re assuming that they don’t have good intentions, when in every interaction. So that’s kind of where my mind went. And it was just reminding me of this, this person that I was coaching the other day, who this is repeatedly, week after week coming and telling me, my wife, this, my wife that, and I finally just took, you know, said, Okay, let’s just talk for a minute. And I said, Do you love your wife? And he said, Oh, of course, I love her immensely. And I said, is she is she a good person? Do you believe she’s a good person? And he said, Yeah, she’s a really great person. I said, do you trust her? And he said, Yes, she’s the person I trust most. And I said, Then why are you thinking and treating her like, she’s your enemy. Hmm. And he didn’t realize that he was doing that until I pointed it out. But as I looked at that, I also looked back at my own feelings, my own, just not knowing these concepts, and being maybe, I’m sure a little more or a lot more immature, in my own marriage, and in my own life, where I have also done that to people in my life where I have not treated them. As they were, on my side, I treated them as they were on the other side, where he just automatically assumed that without reason, that that’s where they weren’t and how it just created such such difficulty and conflict in those relationships. How does that tie into what you’re talking about with the mirroring?
Brent Bartel
Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s right on point. I think that’s right on point, you know, part of it is if we can just recognize that I think people are trying their best. I mean, if we we try that on as a basic paradigm. And then if we reflect back, so if I always reflect back the most beautiful, hopeful, abundant images back to those within my influence, what do you do for them? And that’s a choice. And then we have to kind of go inside and be a little introspective and go, Well, how do I do that? I mean, obviously, it’s my nonverbal language. It’s, it’s, you know, the way I click on my forehead, or the way I tilt my head, it’s what I say. And it’s what I like, and nobody, I don’t think you should try that. You know, you that’s that’s hard stuff. You know, why don’t we move you over here to just those kinds of things is I think through how do I reflect that? are principally What am I reflecting back? And how am I reflecting that back? Yeah, I’ve been making a conscious effort to say, Okay, well, I want to reflect back to the intimate people in my life, really favorable images, when when they see their reflection in me wanting to see abundance, I want them to see, I want them to see potential. And maybe that sounds a little nebulous, but I don’t think it is, I think is we kind of tear into
Tina Gosney
what a gift that is to other people, though. Because we already tend to be so incredibly hard on ourselves. And we, we don’t believe that we are capable of a lot of the things that we probably could do if we believed more in ourselves, but to have somebody reflect back to you, that the wonderful potential that they see in you, what a gift that gives to the other person, because it doesn’t feed that negativity that they’ve already got probably going on about themselves. It counteracts that to where they might be thinking, well, maybe I am more than I think that I am. Maybe I can do more than I think that I can right now. Yeah.
Brent Bartel
Yeah. And I think it starts to break that cycle of stinking thinking, you know, Is somebody used to say, but yes, absolutely. And I am going to throw out a story, I probably read my story, quote, I’m sorry.
Tina Gosney
Well extend it for this podcast, it was,
Brent Bartel
you know, later in the evening doing one of those little grabbing dash at the local grocery store is for whatever reason, all my stories tend to connect to the grocery store, but grab some milk, and probably some gum or something, and I’m in line. And there was a woman in front of me, and I’m really, I gotta say, this, Tina, I’m really loathe to even admit this and share this story, but I think it’s instructive. Okay. So I’m behind her in line, and I’m looking at her. And she’s very unkempt. And she’s really sort of disheveled. And she’s sort of wearing fine satisficer all the vestiges of a hard life, you know, looks like she probably hadn’t bathed in a while, and, and, and there was all this stuff. And so my brain just automatically went to this place, you know? Did you look yourself in the mirror before you came out today? Surely, you could have made a better showing than this. I feel embarrassed if I went out like that. And it was just sort of reflexive. And like I said, I’m embarrassed to admit that. And it was in that very moment, I will never forget, I had this impression. It just took me up short. And I didn’t hear an audible voice. But I felt this so distinctly. And it said, essentially, do not judge her. For if you had lived her life, you likely would not be doing nearly as well. And I was stunned. I felt so rebuked and it was interesting for me that those feelings that were of judgment, and criticism melted. And I was just flooded with a sense of sort of compassion and curiosity and more sense that I want to understand and, and I gotta be honest, that little experience, that was a little experience. But for me, it wasn’t it was really profound. Because I have carried that with me for a long time. Yeah. And I think I am a little better, at least for having that experience. Because I, you know, I tried to see people very differently now. And that’s that whole thing you’re talking about. Maybe she’s doing the very best she can in some really difficult circumstances. Because there’s degree of difficulty in life that I cannot possibly see. There’s some people that are just planted in some tough parts of the garden when they bloom anyway. Right.
Tina Gosney
Yeah. So, you know, that reminds me of this concept. I heard of just shared humanity. And I believe this was from like, Desmond Tutu, maybe, or Dalai Lama. But just like, I’ve, I’ve also experienced hard things. And I see that you’ve experienced her things. And we share that. And I don’t need to be casting judgment on your hard things and how you’ve handled them. Yes. I’ve also not always handled my her things very well. I’ve shared humanity. We both have made mistakes. We both had successes. And we just are human beings here on this earth trying to do our best.
Brent Bartel
Yeah. Such a love that that gentleman has that just extend to other people grace? Because I really want that for me from other people. Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Tina Gosney
I’m glad you shared it.
Brent Bartel
Yeah, that’s lovely. All right.
Tina Gosney
The last one,
Brent Bartel
homestretch never thought we’d get there. So this last one I chose is simply go one on one. And I suppose, you know, in our brain bubble, that can mean different things to different people. But I, to me, at least, this means to prioritize the most intimate relationships in our lives by investing the time and energy and just kind of creating deep and meaningful connection. And I think one of the best ways to do to do that is just one to one. Just you and me. Talking, listening, sharing, recreating, or recreating fuel, discovering experience in just doing all the stuff. You know, it seems like a really compelling expression of commitment to essentially say, Yes, you know, I’m busy and there are myriad other things that I could be doing or you could be doing, but none of them are as important and awesome is just spending time with you. I think that is a beautiful compliment that we can give each other and you know, it doesn’t have to be formal in orchestrated, it can be just you and your spouse on the front porch swing, a few minutes on the end of your teenager’s bed at night, you know, sitting with your four year old for an episode of Paw Patrol, I mean, whatever. It’s just, it’s just that we invest ourselves deeply in those kinds of one on one sort of opportunities. I love this quote. So, Dr. Covey has shared this before, but a man named Dag Hammarskjold, he was a Swedish economist and diplomat who served as the second secretary general of the United Nations many years ago. I’m sure you knew that about him, but but the quote is, it is more noble to give yourself completely to one individual, and to labor diligently for the salvation of the masses. I’ve always loved that. You know, and the masses, the masses, maybe your work unit, you know, employees of a small business, the PTO, the high school football team, a dance troupe, you know, your congregation, or large corporation, the masses take on all kinds of different sort of, you know, sort of looks and laboring for the masses is a beautiful thing. But I think the point is that we can pour ourselves into people and projects 40-50-60 hours a week or more and not have a meaningful relationship with our own teenage daughter, or with our own spouse. And so it Dr. Covey would would clean out that it requires just more depth of character and humility, and vision and patience and courage, just to kind of build and foster and repair that one relationship into labor for all of the people and for all of the projects and for all of the classes.
Tina Gosney
Well, there’s when you’re laboring for the masses, there’s public accolades there. Yes, yes, yes, that’s a way of building ourselves up and receiving validation. And like, look, I’m doing good. I’m being good. I’m influencing. I’m serving, I’m helping. But I’ve noticed that it also when we don’t let ourselves go one on one. And I think and I think there is a lot of beauty in that somebody needs to labor for the masses, right? We need that is also a one on one. But I’ve noticed that there are some people that then struggle with a one on one. And I’ve wondered if it’s because being one on one with somebody is ever a much more vulnerable position. To really do all the things that we’ve been talking about today, right? It is let yourself be influenced by them to need to maybe apologize or forgive or to accept them where they are, just to have conversations where you’re really, really listening and getting into a deep a deeper sense of this relationship and connection that you have with them. That is a vulnerable place to go. And some people have a really difficult time allowing themselves to be vulnerable in a one on one relationship like that. And I wonder if that plays into the I would rather go serve the masses, then really focus on one person here in my home?
Brent Bartel
I absolutely think it does. And I think it’s a really astute observation. You know, I don’t think we can put it on a metric or you know, a scale, but I just sometimes think of it as like serving the masses, maybe I’m at a level two or three, in terms of really understanding me and going deep and being vulnerable. But if I’m going to dive deeply into a relationship, maybe it requires me to be at a level seven or an eight or 10. And that’s different. And that’s the whole point of this. No, like Hammer Shot said it is more noble, to be able to give yourself completely and to give yourself completely is so much more difficult. Yes, and yet so much more beautiful, and so much more gratifying. And so much more complimentary, then than not. And so sometimes we can skim the surface of all the good causes and all the good things. Like I said, we’re not vilifying that we’re all part of serving the masses. And we want to do that. But if we do it at the neglect of the one, and particularly the ones that are the intimate ones in our lives, then we’ve just missed so much. We’ve missed so much. I think it’s maybe kind of a good, better, best kind of thing. You know, maybe the best of relationships is being able to, you know, be in relationship and being all in relationship and like you said that’s a process because if I’m card Did if I have a difficult time opening and sharing, and allowing you to see in the corners? Well, it doesn’t happen in a day. But I think through process and mindfulness and work, we can open up more and more and get to those deeper levels of real beautiful intimacy and relationships, and they become so rewarding.
Tina Gosney
Right, right. Right. And you’ve just described like, you know, researchers have come out in late, late years and said, they’ve really measured like, Where does our happiness come from true joy and happiness and satisfaction in our life. And they said, it comes from our most intimate relationships, and the quality in the connection that we feel there. And if we can’t go one on one, that’s going to suffer, right? Our whole quality, happiness, satisfaction in our life, is going to suffer if we’re not able to go one on one.
Brent Bartel
Absolutely. And we just miss, we don’t miss so much. Like I said, you know, if we kind of look at life is this grand adventure. And this is sort of in the tenor of everything we’ve talked about today, which is really willing to go to new places, you know, and there’s so much there. When we really seek to understand when we open ourselves, we learn about ourselves, we learn about other people, and our relationships become rich. And I don’t know, for me, at the end of the proverbial day, I just hope that I was I was good in relationship. Because for me, and it’d be very autobiographical. That’s so much life is just that. I think that I think that important steps go in with me. And so, yeah, if I’m good at everything else, I missed that. Yeah, maybe I’ve missed the really important stuff. This would be my last story, I promise. And, and I say this by permission. And this was a little personal, but I think it’s illustrative or illustrates kind of what we’re talking about here. So I was it a very busy time in my life, both professionally for children, with dogs and tourists, all the stuff. And, and I was serving in a demanding ecclesiastical calling. So I was the Bishop of a large ward. And there’s lots of needs, there always seems to be unlimited needs. And when you stand at the crossroads, you know, in between the lift and glass lives along the way, and it can be a little wavy at times. One of my daughters at the time, was kind of struggling with some identity stuff. And then she just I don’t think she felt very good about herself. I think she just really feared rejection and some things you know, but a lot of that we just chalk up to being a teenager. I mean, Junior High’s that a contrivance of the devil, is it not?
Tina Gosney
I’ve never heard a call out but it makes total sense.
Brent Bartel
Yeah, it’s a tough place to be for like, it’s an Yeah, that was a tough place for her to be and, and I recognize that, you know, she was at that place. And my wife was really good. She was closer to our daughter. And because I was busy saving the masses, trying to keep all the balls in the air. But one of the most important ones was this little teenage daughter and I just hadn’t spent a lot of time with her. Anyway, it was one of those nights. And I remember distinctly I saw her kind of in the family room and I told her honey, I gotta go, I gotta check on some things. I gotta, I gotta go save the masses. And, and she looked at me and she had this really sort of forlorn look on her face. And she seemed a little crestfallen. And was a little quizzical to me. And I looked at her and, you know, she was switched on me, she loved me and, and that was out the door. But I lingered a little bit in the thought. Well, fast forward a little way, you know, several hours, and it was a little after midnight, that gratefully, her twin sister heard something in her bedroom and, and discovered her and she had attempted suicide. And it was, it was a really difficult period of learning for all of us. And gratefully, she survived narrowly, but she survived. And, you know, came to my heartbreaks for parents who have a different story or a different outcome. But how grateful we we are that, that she did. And it was it was a very long ambulance ride with me in the back on the way to the hospital and all of the of the ensuing days, you know, and even years and working through, but it taught me that message that I was not a neglectful father. I really wasn’t. I thought I was doing what I needed to do. It’s just there was so much to do. And it’s kind of this it is as good better fast. And what I was doing was really good. Sometimes what I was doing was better. But maybe perhaps some of the best things. And I’m not suggesting that maybe the outcome would have been totally different. But I do know, I would have learned more, I would have understood more than I could have been of more influence in the life of that child. And I just been a little more present. Had I gone one on one, you know, we had periods of our lives where we did a lot of Daddy daughter, and you know, a mommy son, and daddy son kind of dates, you know, and we’ve sort of ritualized that in our family culture. And I like that. But we were in kind of this period where it’s life was just so busy and hadn’t done that, you know, and it was just hard sometimes to take the time to just go slow. And just to connect, kind of one on one, you know. So I don’t know if that story is health hopeful or helpful or hopeful or not. And it’s intended to be hopeful,
Tina Gosney
right? Well, thank you so much for sharing that, that’s a very vulnerable story for you to share, both for for you and for your daughter, to be able to share that to help other people I think is just invaluable. So thank you for doing that. But I think it’s also just is such a great story to illustrate your point to. Yeah,
Brent Bartel
yeah. And I, for me, at least, it’s like, well, therefore, what I, you know, I’ve had some really challenging experiences, and my soul is stretched, I think, to proportions that are different now. And I’ll never go back to the way it was before. And I don’t want it to. But I think the question often is, you know, we talked about before, if it’s just learned from living, and what a beautiful principle that is, and I just learned a lot from that. And so, and I’m still learning, you know, but just to prioritize that level, that deep level of one on one human connection is so enriching, and just be so powerful in so many ways. Right? Yeah.
Tina Gosney
I’ve loved this discussion that we’ve had today. I think that you picked six great methods there, that we could have a good talk about, and explore. I think that’s gonna help a lot of people. I know, we didn’t talk about it before. But did you have two takeaways and a challenge? You know, what? Okay, if you didn’t,
Brent Bartel
I know, no, I know, that’s a high tradition, you’ve kind of established and far be it for me to know to violate that. So yeah. And you can approve or disapprove of these. But so my first takeaway was simply, and this is maybe the sort of premise of everything today is just the influence is a two way street, that our power to influence is directly related to our willingness to be influenced. I think it’s just being aware of that. And let that run in the background. You know, it produces really different actions, and they produce different fruits. second takeaway, I would suggest is the images we reflect back to others, has an influence and sometimes a profound influence in their lives. So work to reflect from a place of abundance and potential. That’s just what we talked about sort of that little social mirror metaphor. Here aware, so much of what we do, and we talked about this before, in this coaching domain is about awareness. So be aware of what you are reflecting, and then mindfully reflect what is good for you and good for them. All right, my challenge. So this is in the context of the emotional bank account. So maybe for this next week, or I don’t know, maybe for the rest of your life. Focus on making deposits, and minimizing withdrawals into the emotional bank account of your key relationships. And if you sort of use that as a filter, I’ve used that as a frame for so many years, just to look through, like I said, it really, it really helps. It’s very illuminating for me to recognize up Yep, that was that was a bit of a deposit. Or sorry, that was withdrawal, made any record better deposit and maybe just need apologize for making that withdrawal. even teach the concept, you know, the best way to learn this stuff, teach it sit around with your kids say hey, you know, even this weird guy, we’re talking on the podcast and and learn this thing about emotional bank account. Let’s talk about that. So I think that is a great challenge.
Tina Gosney
I love that challenge. One thing that just came to my mind as you were saying that is that when we make withdrawals, it’s actually not a one for one correlation with do deposits, right? So when we make withdrawals, we’re actually like canceling out maybe five, at least deposits that we made. So we need to be very careful when those withdrawals are noticing them so that we can replenish at least five fold, if not more, with deposits in order to keep that bank account in the black and not in the red.
Brent Bartel
Really good point and you spoke of this didn’t do the work of John Gottman right in terms of, yeah, you know, fame, marital research of same kind of thing. It’s like, you know, it’s got to be a minimum of five to one, sort of in our language today deposits, you know, to withdrawals. Anything you raise an important point, just a p.s. here. That, yes, some withdrawals. 50 cents. Other withdrawals? $500,000. Yep. If we if we have made massive withdrawals, we may have to make consistent deposits for years, yes, to move the balance up. And the same thing with deposit are some are insignificant, but important, and others are massive. But on the deposit side, so much of it’s just a matter of just small, consistent deposits, you know, in keeping that, that account as high and as robust as it can possibly be.
Tina Gosney
Yes. So good to remember. And so good to even be aware of. Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for our discussion today. It’s been awesome. I have
Brent Bartel
thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah, really, thank you. You’re doing such a great work in the world. And thank you for letting me be a part of it.
Tina Gosney
Oh, thank you, we’re gonna come back again, we’re gonna do the last part of the pyramid. Awesome. Awesome. Okay, thanks for it.
I loved everything about this discussion with Brent. For me, it was so informative, and so inspiring. I loved the things that we talked about. And I wish we had time to talk about more of them, we’ll be releasing the next level, the level three of the pyramid. And that’s the top level of what other people hear. We’ll be releasing that soon. So make sure you’re watching out for when those episodes are released.
Now, if you’re like most people, you’re listening to these episodes, you’re listening to these things that we’re talking about. And you’re saying, That sounds amazing. I wish that I could do that. And you’re learning it on one level, but you’re just not able to implement it and know how to use it actually, in a practical way in your family.
If that is the case for you, I invite you to make an appointment with either me or with Brent, you’re going to find Brent, His email is in the show notes. It’s [email protected], just send him an email and he’ll set up an appointment with you and talk about what that would look like for you to work with him.
For me, I work with my clients six months at a time. But I really liked to meet with you one time before we start so that we can see if coaching is a good fit for you. There’s a link in the show notes, set it to set up that appointment. It’s only $25. And it’s just a one time appointment where you can bring whatever you want to talk about to that call, and we’ll see if coaching works for you. If you are finding that you’re stuck in your family relationships if you don’t know how to move forward. If you’re struggling if you’re emotionally on a roller coaster, you’re like a lot of people that we talked to, so make an appointment with me or with Brent. We would love to be able to help you learn how to implement the things that you’ve been learning in this podcast.
Keep a lookout for the next in the series that last in the series of this pyramid of influence. Have a great week and I’ll see you next time.
